Curse

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Let's put it this way - the game producers do not sponser tournaments and money rewards for people who can get the most skill points on their characters, complete PvE missions the fastest, solo certain areas of PvE the best, etc. It's clear where the focus of the game is and as such PvP is where the classes need to be balanced.

No, you're confusing sponsored competition events with general game play. Sponsored competition events always pit contestants against each other to promote the sport or product, with cash prizes luring competitors into the event. However, since the PvE side is primarily cooperative with random spawns playing a big role, teams cannot go through a competition ladder's standard elimination format in any reasonable time frame.

Anyone who has participated in elimination tournaments, whether it be a sport like pool, bowling, darts, archery, or whatever knows that elimination formats have to be quick and simple. PvE content just isn't viable for quick elimination format tournaments.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

That's exactly the point, though -- PvP is competitive and PvE is really not. You can use an entire bar of sub-par skills and still make it through the entire PvE world. You always know what you're up against in PvE as well and can build for whatever the specific challenge is. In PvP you have to be prepared to fight anything and use different tactics and therefore every single needs to be worthwhile.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That's exactly the point, though -- PvP is competitive and PvE is really not. You can use an entire bar of sub-par skills and still make it through the entire PvE world. You always know what you're up against in PvE as well and can build for whatever the specific challenge is. In PvP you have to be prepared to fight anything and use different tactics and therefore every single needs to be worthwhile.

I agree that PvP is competitive, but you're very much mistaken if you think anyone can make it through all PvE content with just any skill set. Sure, anyone can make through the standard story line with a non-optimized skill bar but usually by riding the backs of other experienced players running more optimized builds. This is why missions like Eternal Grove and G.Hatchery are almost impossible to henchie, especially if trying to obtain protector titles. Then there are the special access zones like UW, FoW, The Deep, etc... BTW, I'm assuming you have both protector titles and speak from PvE experience?

Seriously, there's no need to tunnel-vision on PvP and neglect everything else.

In all honesty, I find GW PvP very underwhelming coming from a competition level Quake background, but I digress. If GW was a PvP only game with no PvE content, I would have never purchased it, let alone all 3 available CE's.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

If all of the skills in the game are good enough for serious PvP, you're gonna be able to make a strong character for PvE out of any class. It's really that simple.

The only thing that perplexes me right now are Necromancer minions. Animate Bone Minions is useful for bloodspike and that's about it. I'm really not sure how to make a Minion Master viable for GvG or HA; I'll have to think about it. Off the top of my head I'd say the pet heals need to be un-nerfed and/or undead degen needs to be reduced in order to give Minion Masters the kind of constant power that's good enough to warrant a spot on the team (although this issue alone is not the only quandary on the table when looking at how to make an MM useful). It would definitely be great fun to see a Minion Master used in GvG, introducing a new playing style to that realm of the game.

master_of_puppets · Oct 19, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

However, since the PvE side is primarily cooperative with random spawns playing a big role

Thats the best argument to defend PVE? I dont think random spawns play a big part at all. Ok so that boss and that group of 5 brainless NPC's is somewhere else then you though it would be, now you must spend 2 more mins capping that elite that you're gonna use once or twice. You already know what skills those monsters are gonna use and know how to face them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I agree that PvP is competitive, but you're very much mistaken if you think anyone can make it through all PvE content with just any skill set. Sure, anyone can make through the standard story line with a non-optimized skill bar but usually by riding the backs of other experienced players running more optimized builds. This is why missions like Eternal Grove and G.Hatchery are almost impossible to henchie, especially if trying to obtain protector titles. Then there are the special access zones like UW, FoW, The Deep, etc... BTW, I'm assuming you have both protector titles and speak from PvE experience?

Ok any mission in the game is hench-able. PvE'ers use whatever skills they feel like and yes, anyone can make it through PvE. Why do you have mending W/Mo's that aggro groups. The AI is so bad the monsters will just keep attacking the first target that comes into aggro range, allowing the other members like the Mo/W using a sword and he ele with a pet to go in after and pwn them

Now back to the thread's purpose:

I'd say buff the deadly arts line, as of now all the skills are pretty much useless, even the rit's restoration magic line gets more use.
Nerf Horns and Fangs, those 2 skills are on every single assassin's bar. I disagree strongly with the "make everything in-removable" idea and think they should stay as enchants. And make more (or improve the current) shadow stepping skills.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If all of the skills in the game are good enough for serious PvP, you're gonna be able to make a strong character for PvE out of any class. It's really that simple.

There are a couple of problems that with the above statement:

1) L20 opponents are standard opponents in PvP arenas. In PvE, L28+ monsters the norm in end-game zones. Nothing in PvP hits for over 300+ damage in a single strike like a bladed aatxe or deep leviathan. PS: If you've soloed a Deep Leviathan or Kanaxai before, I'd really like to see a screen shot

2) PvP arenas usually have equal numbers of opponents facing each other. In PvE, it's you vs. the zerg hoard in more than a few missions. It's very easy to get overrunned if you don't have the correct classes with the proper builds running support.

3) Critical hits are affected by level difference between the attacker and the target. For PvP, most opponents are L20, so critical percentage chances are fine. However, these percentages drop off dramatically with higher level opponents (like those found in PvE).

I agree that PvP and PvE skill requirements don't always match. PvP usually requires more situational flexibility, while PvE needs more general defense. However, it is possible to balance both sides of the game without negatively impacting the other so long as the skills are properly implemented without bias nor favoritism.

Converting enchantments into non-strippable skills is one example of a "clean" solution. No numbers are altered, but the skill still becomes more viable for PvE without imbalancing it for PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The only thing that perplexes me right now are Necromancer minions. Animate Bone Minions is useful for bloodspike and that's about it. I'm really not sure how to make a Minion Master viable for GvG or HA; I'll have to think about it. Off the top of my head I'd say the pet heals need to be un-nerfed and/or undead degen needs to be reduced in order to give Minion Masters the kind of constant power that's good enough to warrant a spot on the team (although this issue alone is not the only quandary on the table when looking at how to make an MM useful). It would definitely be great fun to see a Minion Master used in GvG, introducing a new playing style to that realm of the game.

Agreed, though the corpse requirement to summon minons really limits viability. Perhaps GW should borrow an old trick from EQ, where pets were summoned using material components like bones. It would definitely add a new money sink.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

Thats the best argument to defend PVE? I dont think random spawns play a big part at all. Ok so that boss and that group of 5 brainless NPC's is somewhere else then you though it would be, now you must spend 2 more mins capping that elite that you're gonna use once or twice. You already know what skills those monsters are gonna use and know how to face them.

Defend PvE? What's there to defend? Did you even read the original post the reply was aimed at? The question was why ANET held PvP competition tournaments with cash prizes instead of PvE -- this was answered by the post you only partially quoted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

Ok any mission in the game is hench-able. PvE'ers use whatever skills they feel like and yes, anyone can make it through PvE. Why do you have mending W/Mo's that aggro groups. The AI is so bad the monsters will just keep attacking the first target that comes into aggro range, allowing the other members like the Mo/W using a sword and he ele with a pet to go in after and pwn them.

...<SNIP>...

Vizunah Square w/ only henchies anyone? It's a total crapshoot if the other team only has henchies protecting either NPC. Be prepared for many retries...

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

I disagree strongly with the "make everything in-removable" idea and think they should stay as enchants.

Care to explain here? All of the Critical Strikes enchantments are currently a waste of a skill slot. They would actually be useful if unremovable and instantly performed with no downtime (plus buffs to what they actually do for some of them). Do you think Critical Eye should be turned into an enchantment as well?

----------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I agree that PvP and PvE skill requirements don't always match. PvP usually requires more situational flexibility, while PvE needs more general defense. However, it is possible to balance both sides of the game without negatively impacting the other so long as the skills are properly implemented without bias nor favoritism.

Well I DO think PvP should be given favoritism. There really is no denying that PvP is of greater importance in this game. But, again, if skills are fine for serious PvP they are fine for PvE. I don't see how your examples of fighting level 28 creatures in PvE changes anything...you can take any good GvG build and it would be able to go through all the PvE missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Agreed, though the corpse requirement to summon minons really limits viability. Perhaps GW should borrow an old trick from EQ, where pets were summoned using material components like bones. It would definitely add a new money sink.

Yes, the corpse requirement is the biggest problem. No spell should require components, that does not fit in with this game, but I may have just thought of something...for every minion spell on your bar you start the game with each of those minions and they don't start degenerating until the timer starts. I think that could make them useful without being overpowered.

Shendaar · Oct 20, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I think my main grip with SR right now is the casting time. I can take more damage in that 1 second it took me to cast it than the healing it will end up giving me. SR begs to be interupted and having to stay in combat to get a decent heal out of it is counter-productive for an assassin.

Now I don't think it is as bad of a skill as alot of people make it out to be, but I do think it could use a little buff.

lord_shar · Oct 20, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

...<SNIP>...

Well I DO think PvP should be given favoritism. There really is no denying that PvP is of greater importance in this game. But, again, if skills are fine for serious PvP they are fine for PvE. I don't see how your examples of fighting level 28 creatures in PvE changes anything...you can take any good GvG build and it would be able to go through all the PvE missions.

This is where we can agree to disagree. If ANET wants to maximize GW's audience appeal, then it MUST cater to both PvP and PvE camps. Without a PvE grind to promote gradual skill + equipment aquisition, most players wil tire of GW quickly and move onto other game titles. Once PvE content becomes stale, PvP provides another level of challenge and entertainment. By keeping the game well rounded, ANET increases GW's longevity and sales.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yes, the corpse requirement is the biggest problem. No spell should require components, that does not fit in with this game, but I may have just thought of something...for every minion spell on your bar you start the game with each of those minions and they don't start degenerating until the timer starts. I think that could make them useful without being overpowered.

Why not? Summoning minions without corpses is an obscene advantage and should be counter-balanced with finite resources like material components. If a corpse is nearby, then no material components should be consumed. If no corpses are available, material components can allow the minion master to get the initial minions up, then move into combat from there.

PS: Please keep an open mind... makes brainstorming more productive.

Zuranthium · Oct 20, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

This is where we can agree to disagree. If ANET wants to maximize GW's audience appeal, then it MUST cater to both PvP and PvE camps. Without a PvE grind to promote gradual skill + equipment aquisition, most players wil tire of GW quickly and move onto other game titles. Once PvE content becomes stale, PvP provides another level of challenge and entertainment. By keeping the game well rounded, ANET increases GW's longevity and sales.

There's nothing that's needed to balance classes in PvE. I mean, really. If things are fine for PvP it's gonna be good enough for PvE. The draw for PvE is going to be having more interesting missions and such. Guild Wars is not about grinding...You just go through the game and gain whatever you want at your own pace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Why not? Summoning minions without corpses is an obscene advantage and should be counter-balanced with finite resources like material components. If a corpse is nearby, then no material components should be consumed. If no corpses are available, material components can allow the minion master to get the initial minions up, then move into combat from there.

With the way the game set up the way it is now, you can unlock any weapon or skill in the game through PvP. You shouldn't HAVE to do anything in PvE to be able to use any skill in the game. I'm not sure if a minion being constantly summonable is totally balanced either. It would be as if a Ranger's charm animal ability was also the pet rez for the class.

I'm liking my minion idea.

lord_shar · Oct 20, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

There's nothing that's needed to balance classes in PvE. I mean, really. If things are fine for PvP it's gonna be good enough for PvE. The draw for PvE is going to be having more interesting missions and such. Guild Wars is not about grinding...You just go through the game and gain whatever you want at your own pace.

I disagree, but to each his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Resources are not really finite though. A player could load up any as many of them as they wanted before a battle and keep the max number of minions up at all times. Way too powerful. Besides, with the game set up the way it is now, you can unlock any weapon or skill in the game through PvP. You shouldn't HAVE to do anything in PvE to be able to use any skill in the game.

I'm liking my minion idea.

Depends on how many materal units are consumed per minion cast. If 100 bones are consumed per bone fiend cast, then you'll burn through a lot of bones trying raising an army. Try a full 250 stack per minion, and it gets pretty expensive. You could also use life sacrifice as another finite resource (50%+ per minion).

Summoned minions should never be free-casts. They are not ranger companion pets.

EDIT: Are we still talking about assassin skills, or is this thread done?

Zuranthium · Oct 20, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Materials just aren't a good idea. Don't like it, doesn't suit this game, no thanks.

Yes, let's stay on Assassin skills. Everyone who's reading the thread please pitch in on anything (except Shadow Refuge, omg). I'll do the Necromancer thread in the next few days and people can add their opinions on minions there.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 20, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

The skills are balanced based on PvP, not PvE. I agree, that skills should be developed, or better yet, enemies should be structured to work effectively in PvE, but the true test of talent is PvP, and PvE is for the experience.

No matter how poor certain things work in PvE, PvP balance is a requirement, PvE function is always going to take second place. In essence, PvE itself should be crafted better to provide relatively simular challenges as PvP to keep skill functionallity equal. But we all know that PvE is alot more about crowd control, and alot less about counters like Mesmer, yet that doesn't mean Mesmer will get a total recall because it is not PvE focused.

And though the whole necro thing doesn't belong in this topic, consumables do not belong in this game, we don't use arrows, spears, or other inventory items to power anything in this game, it is all based on skill slots and replenishing costs. This game doesn't deal in consumables, not potions, mana bottles, water, or anything of that nature. The cost of a corpse is what minions are made of, and bones are provided by the corpse. There are certain things specifically left out of the game for the very distinct and legitimate purpose of keeping PvP well rounded.

lord_shar · Oct 20, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

The skills are balanced based on PvP, not PvE. I agree, that skills should be developed, or better yet, enemies should be structured to work effectively in PvE, but the true test of talent is PvP, and PvE is for the experience.

PVP skill rebalances are more frequent than PvE rebalances, but that doesn't mean it never happens for the latter. Wasn't Hundred Blades converted into an elite because of its over-powered synergy with Illusionary Weaponry? Was this a PvP or PvE nerf, or both? And what about the protective bond nerf? Remember how a L18 protective bond only lost 1 energy per hit on the original 105 UW monk build? That isn't the case any more.

All I'm saying is that ANET does rebalance skills for both PvP and PvE issues... nothing more, nothing less. To claim that no PvE skill rebalances ever happen is outright ludicrous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

No matter how poor certain things work in PvE, PvP balance is a requirement, PvE function is always going to take second place. In essence, PvE itself should be crafted better to provide relatively simular challenges as PvP to keep skill functionallity equal. But we all know that PvE is alot more about crowd control, and alot less about counters like Mesmer, yet that doesn't mean Mesmer will get a total recall because it is not PvE focused.

I agree that PvP game play does drive skill changes more often than PvE, primary because ANET wants to prevent a single dominant tactic from ruling the arenas. I still remember when spirit spam existed, and it was quite a mess.

I'm only wishing that the Devs have better direction in global class and skill balancing, because their knee-jerk updates are generally poor rush jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

And though the whole necro thing doesn't belong in this topic, consumables do not belong in this game, we don't use arrows, spears, or other inventory items to power anything in this game, it is all based on skill slots and replenishing costs. This game doesn't deal in consumables, not potions, mana bottles, water, or anything of that nature. The cost of a corpse is what minions are made of, and bones are provided by the corpse. There are certain things specifically left out of the game for the very distinct and legitimate purpose of keeping PvP well rounded.

I agree that necro skill suggestions don't belong in this thread. However, consumable items definitely exist in game now. What do you think makes up the armor your character wears? What about Candy Canes, Salvage kits, ID kits, and other clickables? Spell components may not be present now, but if there's enough of a push to use material to limit very powerful skills, then it is possible that they may get implemented in future patches. Until then, MM's will have to continue waiting for corpses.

Sorry for the derail again, but if someone disputes a point I've previously made, I will address it appropriately.

Zuranthium · Oct 20, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I agree that PvP game play does drive skill changes more often than PvE, primary because ANET wants to prevent a single dominant tactic from ruling the arenas.

The arenas??? Lord help us all if PvP balances are made based upon THAT.

lord_shar · Oct 20, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The arenas??? Lord help us all if PvP balances are made based upon THAT.

When I said arenas, I meant all of the organized pvp areas... HoH, HA, etc... should have chosen my words more carefully

Zuranthium · Oct 20, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

HoH and HA are the same area. LOL? I seriously question your knowledge of the aspects of the game that are being addressed in this thread. No need to respond, though. We're off topic enough.

lord_shar · Oct 20, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

HoH and HA are the same area. LOL? I seriously question your knowledge of the aspects of the game that are being addressed in this thread. No need to respond, though. We're off topic enough.

Oops, my bad lol

EDIT: As for this thread, we are talking about assassin skills, right? We've all had half a year to use them, so what certification do we need to post here?

Zuranthium · Oct 20, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

That question answers itself, I think.

I'm quite ready to hear some opinions from people who can discuss their PvP-specific thoughts on balancing the Assassin skills.